lemon
New Member
Posts: 3
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Post by lemon on Aug 22, 2012 15:11:08 GMT -5
Okay, so my first post here is going to be filled with a bit more vitriol then I had wanted, so be forewarned.
Right, so I just had my first run-in with the Siranda Knights. My first impressions were ‘okay, so they’re quite tough but easy enough to beat solo’ and I killed two or three. Then suddenly they started getting stronger, with stupidly overpowered abilities like blinding you when you hit them, as well as a general increase in statistics overall. The thing is, this makes no damn sense. XKCD says there’s even talk about giving them more and more powerful abilities, like stunning anybody who hits them. This is not balance; this is just punishing people for no reason.
The thing is, this seems to be nothing more than a cynical, heavy handed attempt to cash in on the popularity of the hardcore survival server ‘Zombie Survival Reclamation’. There is no designer logic to the knights, they just pop randomly in to say ‘yeah, your fun is over, we’re here to murder you effortlessly for daring to enjoy the power you’ve been given’. Shadows of Siranda has never been about this kind of gaming. It and its predecessor Survival’s Dawn were so popular because they were easy and conflict was based around the players, rather than the monsters. When SoS was at its peak, there were interesting events concerning just about everything from repairing the Elder Dark to defeating a mage willing to go to any lengths to resurrect his lost-soul’d lover. This was what made SoS so great, NOT Monty-haul dungeons and pointlessly overpowered monsters.
I despise the whole knights thing because of what it represents; a dead end. What the hell else is there to do if all the monsters become that stupidly powerful? Do we cower in the boarded home not poking our heads out for fear of getting turned into beef jerky by monsters so stupidly overpowered that they can kill an entire party with one hit? As long as they exist, players will keep killing them, and they’ll be made more and more powerful until we reach a singularity. These monsters are pointless, they serve no purpose other than to destroy what fun we can still have. I don’t want to play an SoS with this kind of scenario in mind, I don’t want to play an SoS where there is no reason for anything that happens. The knights don’t have an IC reason to exist, nor do they serve any purpose on any level that couldn’t be achieved by good design and somebody better at the toolset and scripting.
If somebody actually wants help with either of these things, I’d be happy to do so. I have worked in the NwN toolset for years and can script to a professional degree. Relying on shoddy design like this just belittles the people who created this module and insults the intelligence of those playing it. I don’t want to see that, and I doubt anybody else does either.
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Post by xkcdapostle on Aug 22, 2012 15:57:19 GMT -5
I was pulling your leg about the stun effects being added. For now they serve a purpose in a storyline as Undead Knights of the Crimson King to my understanding. As I have no responsibilities regarding aspects of the lore and current undertakings of the island to do with the DMs, I cannot provide much comment. However I do offer that they were created for a reason; since to my current understanding their existence is to do with a current plot, where its explanation may affect ones enjoyment in playing on the server. They were designed at a player's request I believe, here's the forum post: One upon a long time the Zombie Behemoths were the zombie you didn't fuck with even at maximum level unless you had a tank with Gelz, which was extremely hard to get back them. Now with great out there and more combat-savvy players they're toys to be smacked around for XP! I would suggest creating a new type of zombie that say might take two professional players to take down without a high risk of death, to keep that 'ZS' aspect in play. |
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lemon
New Member
Posts: 3
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Post by lemon on Aug 22, 2012 16:03:01 GMT -5
Okay, so I was wrong about that detail, I'm sorry. However, I take that quote with -massive- piles of salt. Behemoths have never been anything more then punching bags for XP. As far as I know, they never got an upgrade from the small one they did when SoS was first made. When were Behemoth's somehow upgraded?
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Post by BALLS OF STEEL on Aug 23, 2012 11:19:11 GMT -5
If you dont like it, you can play elsewhere. Assuming that you arn't banned everywhere else, of course.
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Post by Bumlader on Aug 23, 2012 13:13:51 GMT -5
Okay, so my first post here is going to be filled with a bit more vitriol then I had wanted, so be forewarned. Right, so I just had my first run-in with the Siranda Knights. My first impressions were ‘okay, so they’re quite tough but easy enough to beat solo’ and I killed two or three. Then suddenly they started getting stronger, with stupidly overpowered abilities like blinding you when you hit them, as well as a general increase in statistics overall. The thing is, this makes no damn sense. XKCD says there’s even talk about giving them more and more powerful abilities, like stunning anybody who hits them. This is not balance; this is just punishing people for no reason. The thing is, this seems to be nothing more than a cynical, heavy handed attempt to cash in on the popularity of the hardcore survival server ‘Zombie Survival Reclamation’. There is no designer logic to the knights, they just pop randomly in to say ‘yeah, your fun is over, we’re here to murder you effortlessly for daring to enjoy the power you’ve been given’. Shadows of Siranda has never been about this kind of gaming. It and its predecessor Survival’s Dawn were so popular because they were easy and conflict was based around the players, rather than the monsters. When SoS was at its peak, there were interesting events concerning just about everything from repairing the Elder Dark to defeating a mage willing to go to any lengths to resurrect his lost-soul’d lover. This was what made SoS so great, NOT Monty-haul dungeons and pointlessly overpowered monsters. I despise the whole knights thing because of what it represents; a dead end. What the hell else is there to do if all the monsters become that stupidly powerful? Do we cower in the boarded home not poking our heads out for fear of getting turned into beef jerky by monsters so stupidly overpowered that they can kill an entire party with one hit? As long as they exist, players will keep killing them, and they’ll be made more and more powerful until we reach a singularity. These monsters are pointless, they serve no purpose other than to destroy what fun we can still have. I don’t want to play an SoS with this kind of scenario in mind, I don’t want to play an SoS where there is no reason for anything that happens. The knights don’t have an IC reason to exist, nor do they serve any purpose on any level that couldn’t be achieved by good design and somebody better at the toolset and scripting. If somebody actually wants help with either of these things, I’d be happy to do so. I have worked in the NwN toolset for years and can script to a professional degree. Relying on shoddy design like this just belittles the people who created this module and insults the intelligence of those playing it. I don’t want to see that, and I doubt anybody else does either. I don't like the fact of them getting stronger because that's bull, really is in my opinion, but I deal with it. .What are you trying to do by attacking them? Prove a point? Stupidity will get the best of you if your not careful, and attacking something that looks intimidating just by it's appearance is just retarded. So that's your fault for hunting them, and also, Monty Haul Dungeons? What are you trying to imply? Gelzburg was meant for Rogues, Clerics, Fighters, and Wizards. That was unfair for those who where Monks, Druids, Sorcerers, Paladins, Bards Etc. We where evening them out so at least those guys get some great OP gear just like the on in Gelzburg. Wait a second, why are you even doing them? If you don't like it, don't do it moron. .OH wait, you're doing it to become some over powered cleric of some gnome. That's why. You don't need to do these dungeons you don't like, others can do whatever pleases them just as long as they don't grind the dungeons 2-3 hours after a reset. For the knights, I would like a back story on them as well if that's what you want, I want that too, know how they became what they are? What makes them so OMG UBER POWEYFUL strong? But something you need to learn, don't try to solo them, if you kill 3, that's good, thats GREAT..For your self gain but try to run away from them. . |
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Post by BALLS OF STEEL on Aug 23, 2012 14:33:07 GMT -5
Theres nothing really to gain from killing them. I might fiddle with a status affect in the ondeath event to take even more fun out of it
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Post by Avvy on Aug 23, 2012 15:09:35 GMT -5
I am going to say this once only on these forums.
I do not see myself in competition with ZSR. The server consists of many friends of mine. Yes, we are two servers that are both about zombie survival, yes both take place in Siranda, but that's pretty much where the similarities end.
The Sirandan Knights were in play on SoS before ZSR came back live, so your assumption that they are there purely to 'compete' is incorrect. Please have actual facts before you make accusations such as these in the future.
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Post by Bumlader on Aug 24, 2012 11:38:09 GMT -5
Going to say one last thing on this thread. Avvy is correct, the knights where implemented before ZSR came back up. .They used to be used as normal spawns, meaning they where everywhere, but players had problems with them because of how powerful they where. .So that said we lowered the chances of you seeing them..This was not a attempt to try and be neck and neck with ZSR, because honestly, I like our OWN playerbase. ZSR has it's own players, and SoS has it's own, and I DM and do my events on SoS for the SoS players. .Why do we even need to try to rival them? Two totally different servers with few similarities. .That's it. For those knights, blame Nammykun, hell I will give you his MSN so you can send your hate and or messages to him because he asked for stronger summons. But again, seriously. .Don't fight them head on. .Or far range. .Nevermind, if you hit it, you get blinded so yeah. I suggest running away. For the dungeons, don't do them if you don't like them. That's all that I need to say, you can try and tell me a reason (And a honest) reason if you do those Dungeons, I will not take "Well you know". .Don't like them, don't do it. That reminds me as well, if you do a dungeon and get gear that you don't like, keep it to yourself OOCly, s'all I ask because when I talk to some people all I hear from them are "The spire gear is shit now" or "Gelzburg gear is shit". Keep it to yourself, feel free to say your idea when we ask you or just a idea. .But don't complain about how weak gear is =/ Though I think the Behemoths and Umber Hulks should be made a lot more stronger OR have a ton of HP. .With that 50 XP back. Makes it annoying for them grinders  . Jk. Anyways, please feel free to submit your constructive criticism Lemon! |
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Post by undeath on Aug 24, 2012 13:03:00 GMT -5
Okay, Bum, I can understand the idea of catering to a majority of players if a majority of players specifically requested this.
But this is now the second thread on these forums objecting to this same enemy for different reasons. I'm left to conclude that these things aren't fun for anybody involved, as they cause massive amounts of nonsensical status ailments (Such as blindness on hit from range, someone please explain to me how that makes sense), break up the flow of RP, destroy the point of going to any given area that has them respawning in it, etc etc.
If you want to reform the enemies, good on you. I don't think anybody would object to a stronger mob of more variegated creatures that have fallen to the plague, and it could open up some venues for new and interesting RP without the need for a spawn that the DMs can make as an arbitrary no fun allowed button to stomp players without a reward. I can't help but feel as though something was missed here to make the Sirandian Knights grant generous EXP in return for being massively difficult to fight, and before you say "Well that would make them hunted.." Yes. Yes it would. But having them hunted down beats, ten-to-one, having them just decide to move in on a random area that holds no strategic value, that they'd have no business being in before they died (like Gun'Reh) just doesn't make any sense. While you might say that you want it to strike fear into the hearts of the higher levels, the Knights, as they stand, aren't doing that, as one buffed cleric can kill one without much effort, and if you make them any harder then you're just alienating the rest of us.
Also, if I remember Nammykun's quote correctly, she drew a comparison between Behemoths inspiring fear. This is technically correct, but misleading, as there was still a reason to kill the behemoths, which was the experience gain. So the creator of the Sirandian Knights took the bits of the statement he wanted to hear out of context, asked for little other input from anyone else, and made a mob that serves as a big "fuck you" button to anyone trying to traverse where they guard.
I'd not be complaining if I didn't care, and I'd be more then happy to pitch in ideas to improve the mod if you want to make it scarier for high levels. I appreciate the work that the DM team here does, and think that it's truly one of the best mods out there, but that it requires a little more polish to live up to the expectations that the DM team has set for it, which are by no stretch of the imagination unreasonable.
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Post by BALLS OF STEEL on Aug 24, 2012 17:50:12 GMT -5
And I am going to press my fuck you button untill it breaks or you ragequit
In essence what I mean is
Nut up or shut up, if you dont like it, nobody is forcing you to play on SoS.
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Post by undeath on Aug 24, 2012 17:58:17 GMT -5
Balls, your only argument to constructive criticism is "FUCK OFF, I'M PERFECT." By that logic, you're happy with an empty server because your draconian policies drove all your players away. If that's the case, go the Orwellian route and delete every thread that even slightly disagrees with your omnipotent views. Christ. As players we try to help because some of us realize the challenges of being a DM, and you telling us that we can either do what you say or piss off when we point something out isn't helping anything get done.
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lemon
New Member
Posts: 3
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Post by lemon on Aug 24, 2012 18:19:33 GMT -5
And I am going to press my fuck you button untill it breaks or you ragequit In essence what I mean is Nut up or shut up, if you dont like it, nobody is forcing you to play on SoS. Yeah, this makes perfect sense. It isn't as if the last time somebody in authority had this attitude the server ended up empty, the owners deposed, and a new one created that sucked all the players out of. OH WAIT... |
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Post by Avvy on Aug 24, 2012 21:10:59 GMT -5
Right. So I will say one more thing on this thread before it is locked to prevent the flaming that is starting on multiple sides here.
1) The Knights don't move into an area at random without a reason, it's true, perhaps you don't see the reasoning behind it yet, but the clues to it are there, I've actually had a player say to me "Oh, are they going because x?" and they were correct. I don't tell you every single reason that an NPC behaves in a certain way because at that point I may as well just write you guys a story and not bother running stuff. The Knights generally don't stay that long in an area with a few exceptions. No, there isn't a huge reward for killing them, with a few exceptions they are used as plot devices. They aren't something that can really be 'hunted' most of the time because they don't spawn naturally in the mod. The only reason they respawn is because all undead respawn, it is a game mechanic and a part of the plague.
2) There has been only a small amount of 'constructive criticism' in this thread. The original post was more of an attack then a "hey I think this, maybe we could do y about it." When people are attacked the natural response is for hackles to be raised, which is what I see happening here.
I'm not even going to address the last comment here about the lack of players, I am aware of why many of the players left and it with one or two exceptions it was not something that was done. If you want to talk about that, feel free to message me privately or talk to me elsewhere, I'm not going to go into things like that in a public venue as it really isn't anyone's business but their own.
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Post by BALLS OF STEEL on Aug 25, 2012 7:30:37 GMT -5
By that logic, you're happy with an empty server because your draconian policies drove all your players away. I have no strong feelings either way |
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. Jk.